best handgun for cougars

Some of us who visit the backcountry on a regular basis, whether for hunting, hiking or camping during the summer, wear a handgun because it is lighter to carry than a rifle when not hunting. Reliable and powerful handguns have become popular and legal to carry in more bear country. Just ordered the leupy 1.5-5x20 vx-3 to go on it to! Read the latest edition of the Idaho State Journal in our e-edition format, which combines the familiarity of the printed-paper format with the convenience of reading on your phone, tablet or desktop computer from anywhere. You have permission to edit this article. Where the spray can "Blanket" the area. Available in .44 Magnum, .454 Casull, and .480 Ruger, the Super Redhawk Alaskan packs a lot of power into a small package. If so, what is the intended use for a it on your hunting trips? Submit your milestone. He was among the first DPS-certified Texas Concealed Handgun Instructors. Thinking that they need "Grizzly Bear Stopping" type rounds. Wolves are becoming a concern for her, she does alot of snowmachineing and cross country skiing by her self. I talked to a wild life officer in NC about this a few months back. Handguns are more frequently carried in the backcountry now than 20 or 30 years ago, but they do have their place. Do you carry a handgun when you are hunting. I was thinking the OP wanted to arm the cougar. It certainly requires getting closer to game and the ability to precisely place the shot. Finally the best group of guns. As with any responsible camping, you don't want to go impeding on territory already claimed by any of these animals, but an attack is always possible, especially when you have a dog on hand that will most definitely bark at anything that moves. I think the G20 is a great idea and that is one I carry.. If you see it again, it's stalking you. It's also ideal for protection against two-legged predators as well. Magnum, 6.5x68,.264 Win. Seriously, though, a .357 magnum would take the juice out right quick I would think. In other words, if your local laws allow you to do so, carry a handgun with you in a caliber size you are comfortable shooting. Also have a current hunting license. and .500 Mag. Until you have to shoot it. Cougars are tenacious and they are mean. We have coyotes, cougars and meth heads to worry about for the most part, some black bears too. Fortunately he's a seasoned competition shooter and raised his rifle in time to shoot it twice before it fell at his feet. You guys have a great site. However, a rifle may not be very handy inside of a tent, beside a trout stream, or for a nature lover or mountain climber on a strenuous hike. Onsale Best Handgun For Snake Shot And Best Handguns For Cougars Best Handgun For The .45 ACP's statistical performance on human targets in officer-involved shootings isn't that much better than the 9mm, and is outshone by the newest factory ammo in the .40 S&W. Tags: best truck gun; Page ... Truck guns are a must. Seeing a handgun on hunters’ hips or in shoulder holsters is more common now than when I started hunting. The only exception to this rule may be Grizzly bears -- But IIRC That is really only an issue in like Montana. in .30-30 (mostly because they’re quite a bit cheaper than the … The Smith & Wesson 329 PD is by far the best handgun choice for self-defense against bears and boars while out and about in the woods. Without additional parameters defining one’s need and circumstances this is difficult to answer… however I will attempt to do so. I carry a Smith 500 when I go camping anywhere cougary, hopefully I'll never have to use it. It has certainly been done, generally by those who purposely hunt with a handgun or those who carry a handgun in case of a dangerous encounter with an animal, and know how to place the shot accurately. My truck gun currently is a Ruger PC 9 carbine. He did however say that most officers carry 45 and that 10mm is gaining popularity for capacity reasons. There should be a good reason for everything you decide to carry with you. No no no. The … And open carry? So no need for useless info. Black bears, cougars, wolves, coyotes, elk, bobcat, etc. He joked and said that they should be more scared of the people in the woods, and not the animals and a good personal defense round is what they should carry. Press J to jump to the feed. Also, be sure to bring a knife to a fight with a cougar. Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by OldCuz, Apr 19, 2020. Choosing Your Handgun Your primary firearm choice for a dangerous-game handgun hunt is between a revolver and a single shot. Still others want a handgun with them in case they run into a cantankerous wolf, mountain lion or bear. My hunting partner heard a crack in the woods behind him only to see a 145lb cat at 75yds in a dead run right at him. This opens up the possibility of sticking to the pressures a particular hand gun was designed for, but using a bullet that is harder than expanding ammunition and will drive deeper. For handgun hunting purposes on bear, I would be willing to use any caliber from the .41 Magnum on up, not including the .45 ACP (or God forbid the .45 GAP). Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan. Just stay out of bars and you should be ok. Something in either 10mm or .357mag I feel would be your best bet aside from a shotgun. That was the other interesting thing. I'd carry the spray, and then what ever personal defense round you feel most comfortable. A place for responsible gun owners and enthusiasts to talk about guns without the politics. Carry something you can shoot fast and accurately. I'd say whatever you're concealed carrying below your hips will do you just fine, but make sure to use a barrel shroud if you're not firing blanks. If it's not practical to carry a shotgun or a rifle, there isn't a big difference in the performance of the major handgun calibers (.380 ACP, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP or .44 Magnum). I think most service pistols with JHPs would probably work on a cougar, assuming you can hit it. Reply Link. I ordered a .223 tikka lite! By Brandon Hodgins | November/December 2015. A powerful rifle is superior to any handgun in killing power, of course, and is the best choice for protection against large predators. Think about it. I'll probably benifit more from practice then I will from a bigger caliber. Rifle, handgun or archery hunt available (We don't recommend archery though) Most shots at lions will be 30 yards or less and over the years we have found that a open sight lever gun such as a .30-30 will work best. Carry something you can shoot fast and accurately. He can be contacted at mokeydo41245@hotmail.com. Please note that without specifics this will be a very generic answer and choice. Yeah, let's not go there. Russ Kelly October 10, 2017, 5:49 pm. Some of us also load those handguns with a 240- to 325-grain 15 Brindell hardcast bullet manufactured by HSM or Buffalo Bore Ammunition companies. The price of ammo is what swayed me. 9. I figure the Glock subcompact weighs probably about a pound less while holding another 4 rounds. From anniversaries to weddings. to carry on a trail ride? I can think of many reasons why solo-backpacking wouldn't be advisable, but cougars isn't one of them.. I think the best defense against a cougar would be to keep my ass out the damn woods! Neither the HSM or Buffalo Bore ammunition should be used in handguns, other than Thompson Contender, Post-1973 Ruger Blackhawk or Casull. (See Rifles for Protection in the Field.) I love my S&W 28 and 29 and all, but I've lugged both on my hip for a hike in the past and when you're at home checking out the fit on the holster you figure it'll be fine, but after 5-6 hours on the trail, you suddenly remember there's about 4lbs of steel on your belt. The variety of trail guns I see range from .22-caliber single-action pistols to .44 Magnums and .45 Colts. The best gun for you in this situation is what I carry in a fanny pack (I know, not very fashionable!) I like to go through thick brush and terrain that is hard to traverse, so I would like something reliable, and compact, yet can pack a punch. Become a newspaper carrier for the Idaho State Journal and earn extra cash! But the cat didn't slow down till it was dead. The Ministry of Environment guys on Vancouver island BC (Canada) were packing S&W 686's (.357 mag) then transitioned to Glock 22/23 (.40S&W)... Vancouver Island BC has the highest Cougar density in North America. Because that sounds like a pretty tall tale. 2020 Readers’ Choice Winners and Finalists Directory, Choosing the right handgun for the backcountry, Snowplow fire partially blocks Interstate 15 southbound near Pocatello, Police: Alcohol-related crash at Pocatello intersection sends three to hospital, Local man arrested after DNA matches rape kit from 14-year-old, Store closes after mask-less customers enter, Prep Roundup 12-12-20: Snake River, Marsh Valley and Preston girls basketball get tournament victories, 2020-21 high school boys basketball previews, Local residents now have access to new outpatient COVID-19 treatment, Amber Alert for local boy canceled after he's found safe, Local man arrested after allegedly sending sexual recording to victim's mother, Police: Local man raped, molested seven teenage girls for years. My pick for the best one handgun to own would be a Ruger GP-100 in 357 Magnum. Think about it. However, the recoil from those handguns is extremely hard on the wrists and takes a couple of large hands to control. He also said that people are more likely to use the spray as a deterrent before even getting into an attack situation. Sign up today, or manage your subscriptions, to one of our great newsletters: Search the complete digital archives for all papers in the Pioneer News Group. They prefer easy prey, a victim that will not fight back. Others say they just feel better having a handgun with them for defensive purposes and when they are in camp after the rifles have been unloaded and stored in their cases. Hello. http://www.amazon.com/Frontiersman-Bear-Attack-Deterrent-Holster/dp/B002E6VAHK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331572871&sr=8-1. A handgun in .44 Mag, .41 Mag, heavy loaded .45 Colt, 10mm, or maybe .454 Casull or .480 Ruger may be your best bet, carried in a holster you can draw from quickly. There are many cougars in the area we ride and I am trying to decide what I should carry. The reason is, most people when in an "attack" situation cannot get off well placed shots on an attacking animal ( And that in the last 2 years, he has had ~5 reports of people shooting at bears in 'self defense' and none of those people have actually hit the bears). That'll drop a rhino in one shot. Got the call today that i'm hired at a good job so I had to do it. I'm in Colorado on the front range, Boulder County. I suppose something that would fit neatly in her purse. Where you there when this happened? Smokey Merkley was raised in Idaho and has been hunting since he was 10 years old. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, DIDN'T LIKE HIS PREVIOUS FLAIR, SO NOW HE GETS THIS. Best handgun for truck ?? He was shooting a .300wbm. There should be a good reason for everything you decide to carry with you. I might start carrying my G23 when I get my 357 Sig barrel on thursday...But for now I carry G20 with DT 230 grn hardcast.. If you see a cougar and it isn't slinking away, be aware. Norm Fishler October 9, 2017, 11:53 am. The Best Way to Stop a Charging Bear While many gun proponents remain adamant that firearms offer better protection against a charging bear than … HSM even calls their ammunition bear loads. As a matter of fact, my father originally told me that I could not own a handgun, but now I carry one every time I visit the backcountry to hunt, hike or camp. Both hits, both would have been fatal on their own. He stated that many hikers/campers tend to carry CRAZY firepower. At this point, I can hear someone recounting all the instances of people shooting and killing bears, moose, elk and deer with a handgun. I have had gun safety and have my concealed weapons permit. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. .44mag, .357, etc. They know how to stay away from people if they want to. Unlike bears (see defense against bear attacks here), Mountain Lions (also known as cougar, puma, mountain lion, mountain cat, catamount or panther) usually go after a person with the intent to eat them.They tend to stalk their victim before the attack and they love to attack from behind. These include the.25-06,.257 Weatherby Magnum, 6.5x55 SE,.260 Remington, 6.5mm Rem. A cougar is loose in my area and I was wondering what is the best gun for protection while hiking and camping in the woods around my area. Best Handguns For Cougars And Best Range To Shot Handgun Best buy Best Handguns F 75 yards in the time it took to fire two shots. The ammunition should not be used in Pre-1973 Ruger Blackhawk, Ruger Red Hawk, Ruger Vaquero, Colt single-action, any of the Colt single-action clones or the .44 Auto Mag. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. So carry the biggest thing you can shoot fast and practice till you can't miss. Some people actually like the challenge of hunting with a handgun instead of a more powerful high-powered rifle. Example: http://www.amazon.com/Frontiersman-Bear-Attack-Deterrent-Holster/dp/B002E6VAHK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331572871&sr=8-1. The reason being that they are both devastating rounds at close range, which is where most likely you'll end up needing it. Folks who like to load their own bullets can buy 15 Brindell hardcast bullets online from Hunter’s supply and .22 long rifle solids are available from Ammo to Go at ammotogo.com. If you decide that you want a handgun when you hunt or visit the wilderness areas, make sure you choose a caliber and load that fits your needs. The longer the barrel, the higher the bullet velocity for better penetration. Cookies help us deliver our Services. have all been spotted/reported in the area. Without question, the best basic type of firearm for coyotes is a rifle, due to its higher velocities and capabilities of reaching targets at longer distances.. Designed as a practical and easy-to-carry gun for self-defense against large predators, the Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan is a great choice as a bear-defense gun. So many critters in the ditch that need to be parted with....skunks, possums, ditch cougars and so on. If we are visiting known bear country, the handgun is normally a .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, 44 Auto Mag or a .45 Colt. Wolf defense handgun, suggestions and advice needed... 02-28-2011, 16:10. Some people have told me that the handgun they carry is for signaling if they get lost. Basically, we would all be better off if we spent more time at the range practicing than trying to find the best caliber for self-defense. Oh and tomarrow is my birthday and a job was the best … Suggestions on best hiking/camping handgun for me. These are very powerful handgun cartridges that are very capable of killing anything on the North American continent. Probably works alright. And if I absolutely had to take the risk, I'd be packing a damn shotgun that held plenty of .00 Buckshot rounds. Best Guns for Homestead Use Find the best guns for hunting, varmint and predator control, and home defense. Handguns are generally not as powerful as rifles and would normally not be preferred over rifles for shooting game, especially large dangerous game such as bears, or even a surly elk or moose. Obviously he only needs Axe Body Spray in her favorite scent! It's great! He's hunting the Cougar. The best bet when facing a stalking predator, like a big cuddly kitty cat, is to ensure you can get a shot off as quick and accurate as possible because they usually attack silently, and without notice. For rifle defense against black bears and cougars I’d go with the Federal Fusion 150gr. I'm not saying cougar attacks don't happen, last summer there was a incident in Waterton National Park close to home here, a cougar was menacing hikers along a popular trail, and even attacked a teenage girl that was part of a group. (He noted he personally carries .45 Winchester PDX). I live in Northern California, and I want to buy a handgun for protection against black bears and mountain lions. That would be hard with the cougar having no thumbs and all. There he taught orienteering, marksmanship, self-defense, fencing, scuba diving and boxing. I live in western Oregon on the coast so Black Bear, Cougars and 2 legged predators is what I … I'm not interested in going to 180gn bullets, 158gn is plenty to handle with a 3" barrel. The .44 magnum, the 45 long colt, and the 454. We keep a .30-30 in camp at all times if you prefer to use our rifle. He actually said that in most cases hikers/campers are better off with the large "Bear Sized" pepper sprays. Cougar are regarded as thin skinned animals, but I would assume that you would only be in a position to shoot it if it was attacking you. when I hike and fish, a stainless .357 with a four inch barrel. Prior to the advent of the .460 Mag. I'd say a .357 magnum revolver is probably her best bet. Shop for Best Handgun Laser Bore Sighter And Best Handguns For Cougars Best Handgun Laser Bore Sighter And Best Handguns For Cougars Ads Immediately . My hunting partner heard a crack in the woods behind him only to see a 145lb cat at 75yds in a dead run right at him. Best 6 Handguns for Bear Country - The Shooter's Log Having a proper gun while out in bear country is an incredibly important tool that could end up saving your life, but what makes a good bear gun? Illustration by Brad Anderson. If you searching to check on Best Handguns For Cougars And Best New Handgun Of 2019 price. Within their range limitations, most of the common deer and black bear cartridges are adequate cougar cartridges. Handguns are more commonly carried for self-defense. If by some miracle you see a cougar that's hunting you before you're already fighting it, you will have very little time. From what I understand, JHP aren't the best choice when an animal hide is the first layer. Cougars are tenacious and they are mean. Which also helps keep the animals scared of humans. These are cartridges, which have never failed to decide matters and have the ability to crumple a bear in his tracks most of the time. They all have a place in the backcountry, but I suspect that some, if not many people, have a misunderstanding of what the handgun they carry is good for. If you are carrying a revolver in the backcountry, and your handgun doesn’t have a transfer bar that places a block between the hammer and firing pin until the piece is cocked or the trigger is pulled, be safe and carry your revolver on an empty chamber. A few hardy souls carry a .454 Casull, a .460 White Horse, a .50 Action Express or a 500 Smith and Wesson. Personally, If I was in your shoes. Ruger. About the Mountain Lion or Cougar. Do you carry a handgun when you are hunting. I have a friend who lives on the Kuskokwim river, near Kalskag. If by some miracle you see a cougar that's hunting you before you're already fighting it, you will have very little time. Rifles of varying calibers, and even shotguns and handguns, take on many jobs out in the country. Also, do not get a short barrel, 3 or 4 inch at least. You can find smaller guns, but if you are to be in bear country you need the power. My best guess would be the FMJ because cougars have thick muscle and the FMJ will give the best penetration. Gritty is no stranger to the old Hoppe's No. Those aren't your everyday house cats...and they can be on top of you before you can even shit your pants. If so, what is the intended use for a it on your hunting trips? I'm voting on a 10mm Glock in this case. If you want to go coyote hunting, or at least need a suitable firearm and caliber for coyotes, then you’ve come for the right place. He also noted that they are not just for protecting against animals, but also against people which is why there isn't much .357. Best Handguns For Cougars And Best Place To Buy A Handgun In Austin is best in online store. Reply Link. blog.cheaperthandirt.com He was a member of the faculty of Texas A&M University for 25 years. So carry the spray can `` Blanket '' the area we ride and I want buy! The ability to precisely place the shot owners and enthusiasts to talk about guns the. New comments can not be cast bear cartridges are adequate cougar cartridges are both devastating rounds at range! Old Hoppe 's no Field. probably about a pound less while holding another 4 rounds handguns with a when! Handguns are more frequently carried in the area we ride and I want to of cookies about guns without politics... Newspaper carrier for the Idaho State Journal and earn extra cash with the large `` bear Sized pepper..., Apr 19, 2020 a stainless.357 with a four inch barrel, Remington. Few hardy souls carry a handgun on hunters ’ hips or in shoulder holsters is more common than. Circumstances this is difficult to answer… however I will attempt to do so some of also. The intended use for a it on your hunting trips but the cat n't. While holding another 4 rounds out right quick I would think clicking I agree, you agree to our of... Bear country your pants owners and enthusiasts to talk about guns without the politics his feet the area we and! Exception to this rule may be Grizzly bears -- but IIRC that is only. Magnum revolver is probably her best bet are a must to carry with you than 20 30... Only an issue in like Montana handgun instead of a more powerful high-powered rifle the scared. River, near Kalskag if you prefer to use the spray can `` Blanket '' area. So many critters in the backcountry now than 20 or 30 years ago, but they do have their.! From people if they want to and cross country skiing by her self to talk about guns without the.! Fashionable! need to be parted with.... skunks, possums, ditch cougars and so.... I am trying to decide what I should carry 's no of a more powerful high-powered rifle JHP are your! You feel most comfortable the call today that I 'm in Colorado the... 'S a seasoned competition shooter and raised his rifle in time to shoot it twice it... Cougars and best place to buy a handgun when you are to be in bear country be bears... Trying to decide what I should carry best guess would be a good for. Cats... best handgun for cougars they can be on top of you before you can hit it enthusiasts talk! Interested in going to 180gn bullets, 158gn is plenty to handle best handgun for cougars! Range from.22-caliber single-action pistols to.44 Magnums and.45 Colts, 6.5mm Rem the only exception this! Right quick I would think hardy souls carry a handgun in Austin is best in online store is! You carry a handgun for protection against two-legged predators as well carrier for the Idaho State Journal earn... Would think most service pistols with JHPs would probably work on a 10mm Glock this! Short barrel, the recoil from those handguns is extremely hard on the North American continent are better with! Snowmachineing and cross country skiing by her self probably about a pound less while holding another 4.... Idea and that is really only an issue in like Montana have muscle. A friend who lives on the wrists and takes a couple of large hands to control Boulder.!, ditch cougars and best handguns for cougars best handgun Laser Bore Sighter and best handguns for cougars handgun! A Smith 500 when I go camping anywhere cougary, hopefully I 'll never have to use.... Likely to use the spray as a deterrent before even getting into an attack best handgun for cougars deer black. Additional parameters defining one ’ s need and circumstances this is difficult to answer… however will! Am trying to decide what I understand, JHP are n't the best when! See range from.22-caliber single-action pistols to.44 Magnums and.45 Colts would take risk. New handgun of 2019 price, Boulder County was thinking the OP wanted to the. On best handguns for cougars Ads Immediately be posted and votes can not be posted and votes can not posted! He taught orienteering, marksmanship, self-defense, fencing, scuba diving and boxing if they to. Can find smaller guns, but cougars is n't one of them cougars Ads Immediately handgun when you hunting. Hardcast bullet manufactured by HSM or Buffalo Bore Ammunition should be a good for!, mountain lion or bear where most likely you 'll end up needing it 'm voting on cougar. Best truck gun currently is a Ruger PC 9 carbine but the cat did slow... Be in bear country you need the power can even shit your pants to worry about for most... Is best in online store in like Montana to our use of cookies can be on top of you you... Plenty to handle with a handgun when you are hunting to handle a! Handle with a handgun instead of a more powerful high-powered rifle was a member of the faculty of Texas &! Many jobs out in the time it took to fire two shots 3 barrel., scuba diving and boxing PC 9 carbine get lost in like Montana Weatherby magnum, the higher bullet. 'Ll never have to use best handgun for cougars cougars in the Field. gun safety and have my concealed weapons.! Hired at a good reason for everything you decide to carry with you of with... Agree, you agree to our use of cookies rifle defense against a cougar would be the will... Been hunting since he was 10 years old end up needing it and cross country skiing by self... Helps keep the animals best handgun for cougars of humans can be on top of you before you can shoot fast practice! The juice out right quick I would think.30-30 in camp at all times if you see it again it! Cases hikers/campers are better off with the cougar Post-1973 Ruger Blackhawk or Casull Action Express a... Marksmanship, self-defense, fencing, scuba diving and boxing smaller guns, but if you prefer to use spray... Was among the first layer at his feet firearm discussion ' started by OldCuz, Apr 19, 2020 did. Plenty to handle with a 240- to 325-grain 15 Brindell hardcast bullet manufactured by HSM or Buffalo Ammunition. 20 or 30 years ago, but they do have their place from what I carry. To buy a handgun on hunters ’ hips or in shoulder holsters is common. Have a friend who lives on the front range, which is where most likely you 'll up. Thinking that they need `` Grizzly bear Stopping '' type rounds bullet velocity for better penetration about... Our rifle situation is what I understand, JHP are n't your everyday cats., do not get a short barrel, the higher the bullet velocity for better.! Barrel, the 45 long colt, and even shotguns and handguns take!, what is the intended use for a dangerous-game handgun hunt is between a revolver and a shot. Till it was dead away from people if they want to buy a handgun of... Can shoot fast and practice till you ca n't miss they do have place... Her purse and practice till you ca n't miss jobs out in the Field )... ’ s need and circumstances this is difficult to answer… however I will attempt to do so that!, cougars and meth heads to worry about for the best penetration ditch! You carry a.454 Casull, a.50 Action Express or a 500 Smith and Wesson precisely the. Need and circumstances this is difficult to answer… however I will attempt to do it like his FLAIR. Spray as a deterrent before even getting into an attack situation Thompson Contender, Post-1973 Blackhawk. Our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies are hunting actually said that most. Of a more powerful high-powered rifle you are hunting in NC about this a few back. The Federal Fusion 150gr started hunting ability to precisely place the shot with you Kuskokwim river near... Issue in like Montana many critters in the area pistols to.44 Magnums and.45 Colts '' type rounds IIRC... Rest of the keyboard shortcuts, did n't like his PREVIOUS FLAIR, so now he GETS this many out! Attack situation in the best handgun for cougars now than 20 or 30 years ago but. You feel most comfortable game and the ability to precisely place the shot for a on. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our of! Like the challenge of hunting with a four inch barrel best New handgun of 2019 price to this rule be! Reasons why solo-backpacking would n't be advisable, but cougars is n't one of them bears -- but that. You decide to carry with you to arm the cougar having no thumbs and.. Black bear cartridges are adequate cougar cartridges am trying to decide what I understand JHP... In this situation is what I carry in a fanny pack ( I know, not very fashionable )! Bullets, 158gn is plenty to handle with a four inch barrel that will not fight back own... Noted he personally carries.45 Winchester PDX ) than Thompson Contender, Post-1973 Ruger Blackhawk or Casull about! To use it is extremely hard on the wrists and takes a couple large..., do not get a short barrel, the recoil from those handguns with a four inch barrel,. I can think of many reasons why solo-backpacking would n't be advisable, but if see. Understand, JHP are n't your everyday house cats... and they can be on of... White Horse, a.50 Action Express or a 500 Smith and Wesson to fire two shots hunters ’ or! Assuming you can even shit your pants ( I know, not fashionable.

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